Challies on public schooling and self-fulfilling prophecies
December 17th, 2007Tim Challies interacts with some of Albert Mohler’s thoughts on public schools in Mohler’s forthcoming book, “Culture Shift.”
If schools truly are “prime battlegrounds for cultural conflicts,” as Dr. Mohler states, why would we purposely remove ourselves from them? Why would we give up and retreat from this battleground? If this is where the hearts and minds of generations of citizens will be formed, why would we take no interest in it? If we retreat, we lose our voice.
What do you think about Tim’s conclusions?
We have decided to home school our son next year for kindergarten. We’ll see how it goes, and then evaluate whether to continue doing so the following year.
I think the whole public/private/homeschool question has to be appiled on an contextual and individual basis.
I’m grateful for my public school teachers who invested the time in me at the high school level. I respect those parents who take up the challenge to school their kids themselves. If I were a father living in Jackson and had the needed funds, I would without a doubt look into the Augustine School (http://www.augustineschool.org/). Dr. Green has the right vision for our youth, I think.
How can we be “salt and light” to the world if we refuse to make contact with it?
We’ve taken the position that we’ll send our kids to public school until such a time when public school infringes too far on the standards we hold for our family. At which time, we’ll make whatever adjustments necessary.
To date, we have one son in public school. While not all effects on him have been positive, we’ve been able to make necessary corrections. Compared with the light that I believe he, even at his age, is being to his classmates it’s DEFINITELY a choice that God has blessed.
Further, I don’t think the “corrections” we’ve had to make with him are unlike what we might encounter if we’d sent our children to private/Christian schools. Frankly, I’ve met many of those kids and they’re not a whole lot different than the public school kids.
Finally, don’t mistake my willingness to have our kids in public school us being willing to use them as “tools” for a greater good. We’re not willing to risk their integrity, but that integrity is not gained or strengthened without testing. Without testing, it’s a false, weak integrity.
I have not thought through this issue at length, but I do have a question to Christian parents that I want to start with a statement.
I have a friend who is against homeschooling/private school and for public school for this reason: He says that he wants his child to be a light in the school system and to share the gospel with his fellow classmates.
I can understand that, but what if your child is not a Christian? (I have not asked him his full opinion on the subject yet). For those of you who have this mode of thinking, do you just want them to be a positive influence on the children/teachers around them until God chooses to save them (if He does choose to save them)? I am curious about that aspect of it.
Thanks,
j razz
I am very much not AGAINST homeschooling/private schooling. Given the right circumstances, we’d follow suit in pursuing non-public school alternatives, no doubt.
To address the question you get to, my opinion is that a child’s own relationship with God is of PRIMARY importance before their ability to reach others for God. In which case, I still believe that God reaches people where they are, not only when their in some sheltered or protected environment.
Our children learn when we guide them through the events and situations they encounter. It’s our responsibility that when they’re not saved, we point them towards those discussions. If they are saved, then we help them make wise, Biblically based decisions. When a child is being convicted and being called by God, allowing them to compare their budding belief against their knowledge of the world is part of the “testing” that I think is best.
JRazz, I firmly believe that we’re (Christians) to be active participants in society, not isolated away from it. Sometimes, when you’re involved in our world, you get bumped, scratched, and touched. But God calls us to this. With parental guidance, I believe that calling extends to children.
So Jason,
You would say you would send them to public school for the experience/testing aspect of it and then help your child to think critically/biblically through it
vs.
Sending your child to school for the purpose of them being a light for something they may or may not believe in.
(I think it is understood that if they become a Christian the being a light part will follow)
Like I said, I have not given a lot of thought to it, but will need to at some point in the future God willing.
j razz
Just to clarify, I don’t think when he made that statement he felt a need to clarify or give a detailed explanation of what he meant so it could very well include both aspects as stated above and he just chose to focus on one aspect of it. Regardless, thanks for the comment.
j razz
All three of our kids are in public school right now. But for two years of our oldest’s high school time (9th and 10th grades) we had the privilege of sending him to a private Christian school.
Gotta go with Adam on this one. The decision needs to be made on an individual and contextual basis.
I think the “testing” and “being the light” are both possible outcomes of the same process.
I also agree with Pastor T and Adam that it’s a decision that needs to be in the context of a family and the conditions they’re dealing with.
“Why would we give up and retreat from this battleground?”
You guys think of pubic schools as some kind of theological “battleground?” What the…? I always thought school was a place to learn reading, writing and arithmetic. If you think you can do a better job teaching your children the 3 Rs than public schools, then I can understand homeschooling. But if you home school your children just to shelter then from the culture at large, I think that’s setting them up for failure.
Creationist home schooling will actually shelter your children from reality. I think that maybe it would be better to have children exposed to the real world rather than sheltered in a church like environment. Educators say home schooled children can’t think critically and can’t socialize with other’s well. They learn by rote, not by thinking out of the box.
I’m all for Christians becoming public school teachers. In this context, they are excellent missionaries in a hostile environment.
As for children…I will not send my children into a battlezone until I properly prepared them for the fight. Anything less would be irresponsible as a father. Speaking as a former U.S. soldier, we don’t go into a combat environment and learn as we go. We are throughly prepared BEFORE, then learn to adapt our techniques while “in the thick of it.” Yes, this is a spiritual battle, but a battle nonetheless - with deeper consequences than physical death.
I always thought school was a place to learn reading, writing and arithmetic.
That’s the consensus view of most conservatives, I think. It’s the other side that seems to view public schools as political indoctrination centers, which is what fuels the homeschooling movement in the U.S.
I don’t think public schools should teach creationism, so let’s just get that out of the way right now.
You don’t learn mathematics by “thinking out of the box” and the test scores of American students are ample proof of this.
My wife and I were both homeschooled K-12. We both feel that homeschooling has many benefits and some serious drawbacks as well. Despite what homeschooling evangelists tell you, not all parents are capable or qualified to educate their children themselves. I can think of several families I knew growing up whose homeschooled kids are every bit as screwed up as anything you’ll find in the worst public school system. Private schools have their own set of issues as well. Adam is right - every family needs to make their own decision.
Cineaste, largely I agree with you, but I don’t know that I would have said it all the same way…
From a Christian worldview, all environments have potential for pointing others to God. I wouldn’t (and didn’t) single out schools as some sort of special battleground.
I’d rather have the “teaching moments” that my fairly low-risk public school offers between my children and me. Obviously, if I lived in a crime saturated neighborhood, the risks may be too great and I’d spend more time defending and correcting than teaching.
I do think a Christian who understands opposing worldviews is a well-educated Christian. Likewise, a non-Christian that understands Christian perspectives is best able to converse with them/us. I’d much prefer my children to understand what others think, compare it to Scripture and “own” their belief of it. Otherwise, they’re only repeating what I’ve managed to berate, repetitiously brand, or otherwise make “rote” what they say they believe.
If you think you can do a better job teaching your children the 3 Rs than public schools, then I can understand homeschooling.
That’s exactly why we’re doing it.
If I have kids someday, I’ll send them to public school with the hope that they can be in the world, but not of the world… like Jesus prayed in John 17.
I wouldn’t trade my experiences in public school for anything. I have several acquantances that were homeschooled through high school. Generally, I would say the sheltered environment allowed them to mature faster spiritually, but most were way behind the curve in terms of social development. I agree 100% with Jason that “[w]ithout testing, it’s a false, weakened integrity.” What good are your values and morals when you don’t have the tools or experiences to try them and strengthen them? It’s like a tree not having any roots… the littlest storm will uproot it.
I wouldn’t trade my experiences in public school for anything.
Especially your experiences in Ancient History class, huh Chris?
Obviously no blanket statement can be made here.
But I’m glad people are looking at more than the worldview/values side of the discussion. (Let me be clear, though, in saying that that is very significant).
Part of the appeal of homeschooling is the opportunity to allow your kids to learn at their own pace (government schools cater to the middle to low end of the bell curve) and to follow their interests (with guidance, of course). I want my kids to enjoy learning, not be bored by it. That will serve them very well in the long run.
And, yes, nothing, especially education, takes place in a worldview vacuum, so being able to shape my kids’ education to accord with a biblical view of reality is important to me too. There are plenty of ways to connect them to the lost world at large (neighborhood, sports, etc.). They are around other kids at church and as families enjoy biblical fellowship with each other.
That said, we’ve not decided if we’ll homeschool or not. But the decision will be made prayerfully, and will be driven by my calling to care for them and shape them and prepare to send them out into the church and the world.
A final note:
Raising up children outside of the government schools need not automatically be construed as an abdication of the biblical mandate to be salt and light. Indeed, perhaps in so doing we better prepare them to be so as adults in their churches, families, vocations, and neighborhood. Thus when we let our arrows fly (using the Proverbs metaphor of children as a quiver full of arrows), ie when they leave our direct care as adults, they will have the foundation to make a mark.
Its just a longer-term perspective.
I know I’m going to be misunderstood and attacked for this statement, but pay careful attention to a key word in this sentence so that you don’t misunderstand:
Childhood is to primarily be a period of training and growth, not missionary endeavors.
We believe that no one can train or promote growth for our children more than us, and therefore we are planning on homeschooling.
Educators say home schooled children can’t think critically and can’t socialize with other’s well. They learn by rote, not by thinking out of the box. Cineaste, who told you that? Who are these “educators”? That is so 1980s. That line of reasoning has been so disproven that hardly anyone appeals to it anymore. Do you know many adults who were homeschooled? Are they suffering from a life characterized by uncritical and uncreative thinking? Are they social misfits? My experience has yielded the opposite conclusions.
Amen, Brett.
Generally, I would say the sheltered environment allowed them to mature faster spiritually, but most were way behind the curve in terms of social development.
That’s been my experience. At 25 years old, I still have challenges in certain social situations that I attribute to my homeschooling experience (which was, on the whole, a great experience). I don’t think I’m unique in this.
Childhood is to primarily be a period of training and growth, not missionary endeavors.
Replace “not” with “for” and I’m with you.
One of the fallacies that I see in this whole argument is that we believe that the only way, or at least the primary way of engaging the public schools is to send our children to those schools. It’s strange that Bill and Hillary sent Chelsea to a private school in DC yet had no qualms about voicing their opinions and pushing their agenda for public schools. Public schools can be engaged by adults and teachers. It doesn’t have to come through our children.
Second, we often forget that those who make the biggest difference in a society often come from the most sheltered backgrounds. One the most ironic twists of the Civil Rights movement is that as society became more integrated, the closed ethnic communities that produced the great leaders of the movement were upended. Even in the early church, men like Stephen came from “schools” were they learned at the disciples’ feet. It was this sheltered environment that gave these men the confidence to go out and change their world.
You might be interested to learn that, here in SC, the new chair of the State Board of Education is a homeschooling mom (a fact which certainly created a bit of a stir…)
What’s the deal with the 3 Rs anyway?
Reading?
Writing?
Arithmetic?
R-W-A…
How about teaching some spelling?
Boy, way to bring up a contraversial topic Tim. Let me go on record to say that I’m supporting a well balanced approach to considering public or private education.
Two thoughts: First, we don’t want to be isolationists in regards to culture and public schooling. I don’t agree that children should be missionaries at school, but I think that we can engage lostness through the networks and associations we have through a public school setting. Being salt and light means more about the context of placing YOURSELF in contact with lostness rather than thinking your kid will do it for you. When we had our daughter in public school we were very involved and it led to many opportunities to share and represent the gospel.
On the other hand, this year we decided to opt for homeschooling. Frankly, it just suited our needs for the time being…..we’re looking at moving oversees and needed to make sure our kids were ready to go into that kind of environment. We’ve had to work harder at finding areas to intersect with lostness as parents–intentionally involving our kids in contexts where we will maintain a positive witness within our community while teaching our kids the importance of people, relationships, and not simply just hangin’ with the saints……
“Cineaste, who told you that? Who are these “educators”? That is so 1980s. That line of reasoning has been so disproven that hardly anyone appeals to it anymore. Do you know many adults who were homeschooled? Are they suffering from a life characterized by uncritical and uncreative thinking? Are they social misfits? My experience has yielded the opposite conclusions.”
Brett, I forwarded your comment to the person who told me this. Here is his reply…
“Tell him that this information came from an educator who has been in the field for over 40 years, has read the recent research on homeschooling, was a college administrator for 25 years, ultimately became the vice president of a college and has dealt with homeschooled students for the past six years. And I would advise him to read the recent research on the subject. Also, this does not imply that homeschooled students are not intelligent, as a matter of fact they handle academic subjects (in terms of content) quite well. Our academic counselors, at the college, had no problem with these students academically it was specifically in the area of socialization and critical thinking that they had problems and the research (to date) bears this out.”
“…the research (to date) bears this out.”
I’m gong to find this “research” your friend is referring to. I’ve never heard of any studies being done into this subject. If anyone has any info, please forward any links you have on this.
Thanks.
From a homeschooling dad,
The culture has influenced the church so much that most Christians can not even begin to think biblically about the subject of educating their own children. Many Christian parents are so concerned that their children are going to be socially deformed because if they homeschool them they will not be able to deal with people on a social level.
Here is a question for all parents; would you rather have your children be able to intelligently articulate the faith or to be able to carry on a conversation about popular culture? I want my children to know about the great men and women of the faith and as little about the latest superstar as possible. I want them to understand that we are Christians and as Christians we do not engage in the practices and lifestyle of the pagans around us. I want them to know that we are different and we are different because God has a “peculiar” people not a popular people. I want my children to read because I want them to read the Bible and great books of the faith. I want them to know arithmetic so that they know the God of the universe gave us math because He is orderly. I went them to write so that they can intelligently put thought on paper to pass the faith on to their children to a hundred generations. I want them to know real science and not pseudo-science. I want them to know logic and be able to reason and give an answer to those who would ask about the hope that they possess. I want them to know the Lord Jesus Christ and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings and to be conformed to His death. And the public school will not and can not teach that.
I want them to go into the world armed with the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, firmly rooted in Christ Jesus, and with compassion for those who have not experienced salvation in Christ. I want them to not be like the world so that when they come into contact with those in the world they are easily recognizable as Christians.
And to our friend the educator for over forty years quoted by Cineaste, having been educated publicly and then going to three public universities I can tell you that most public educators only appreciate critical thinking when it lines up with their way of thinking. When you truly do “think outside the box,” that is outside the box of the prevailing culture of the school or university, you upset the administrators and academic counselors. And furthermore, so called statistics can be easily skewed any direction you desire.
So back to thinking biblically about the subject… If I fail to teach my children the finer points of sociological theory I have not failed at much. If I fail to teach my children the faith, I have failed completely. I have failed at everything and all that I may have accomplished otherwise is wood, hay, and stubble.
As for thinking critically, my children who are 8 years old and younger think more critically than most of the public educated adults that I work and deal with on a daily basis. They had a music recital just like week and to the chagrin of most anti-homeschoolers they actually interacted with the other students. And get this, they interacted with the adults as well. This past Saturday as I was working in the yard an eight year old public school student came over to play with my children. I know most of you that think all homeschool children are antisocial will be shocked but not only did they play all day together with no issues or behavioral problems by the time the day was over the little girl was asking if we could talk to her parents about going to church and about homeschooling her.
The biblical reason to homeschool is because if you are a Christian you have a biblical mandate to pass the faith onto your children and to protect them from the ways of the Canaanites.
Joe
I did find an article on home schooled children and socialization by Richard Medlin at Stetson University. He cites a study by Larry Edward Shyers in this paragraph:
Shyers (1992a, 1992b), in the most thorough study of home-schooled children’s social behavior to date, tested 70 children who had been entirely home-schooled and 70 children who had always attended traditional schools. The two groups were matched in age (all were 8-10 years old), race, gender, family size, socioeconomic status, and number and frequency of extracurricular activities. Shyers measured self-concept and assertiveness and found no significant differences between the two groups.
The most intriguing part of the study, however, involved observing the children as they played and worked together. Small groups of children who all had the same school background were videotaped while playing in a large room equipped with toys such as puzzles, puppets, and dolls. The children were then videotaped again in a structured activity: working in teams putting puzzles together for prizes.
Each child’s behavior was rated by two observers who did not know whether the children they were rating were home-schooled or traditionally schooled. The observers used the Direct Observation Form of the Child Behavior Checklist . . . , a checklist of 97 problem behaviors such as argues, brags or boasts, doesn’t pay attention long, cries, disturbs other children, isolates self from others, shy or timid, and shows off. The results were striking — the mean problem behavior score for children attending conventional schools was more than eight times higher than that of the home-schooled group. Shyers (1992a) described the traditionally schooled children as “aggressive, loud, and competitive” (p. 6). In contrast, the home-schooled children acted in friendly, positive ways.
Cineaste, did your friend provide you with any resources I could check?
We have 4 children. Our oldest is a junior at the public school. We chose to put him in at 9th grade. If we had it to do over I would whave chose to keep him home. The younger three will remain at home. We felt he could get better options as far as AP classes go. They are ok but not great. He is doing very well and is at the top of his class and is getting a lot of interest from some major colleges so we have decided to let him finish at the public school but we monitor his work very closely.
Some of reasons given for homeschooling sound more like brainwashing than educating.
For example, this is what I mean.
There are some legitimate reasons for homeschooling children. For Jesus, for Allah, for Buddha, etc. is not one of them. I bet those kids are even inculcated in creationism. Does anyone disagree with what’s going on in the video?
Cineaste,
By pointing out the most extreme position on the opposite side of the argument, you are insinuating that public education is completely un-biased and perfectly balanced in it’s approach. Do you really think that is the case?
BTW, I’m still waiting on to hear what studies have been done that prove that home schooled children are not socialized as well as those that go to public schools.
But if you home school your children just to shelter then from the culture at large, I think that’s setting them up for failure…Educators say home schooled children can’t think critically and can’t socialize with other’s [sic] well. They learn by rote, not by thinking out of the box.
Yeah, that Tim Tebow has certainly proven that homeschooling ruins children. Gosh, he can only run and pass for touchdowns as a quarterback (so one dimensional). He’s uncreative on the field and surely can’t lead that team of publicly-educated scholar-athletes. If he’d have gone to public school that lazy, creationist, anti-social neanderthal might have won the Heisman in his freshman year. Guess those educators were right once again. I figure that’s why our public schools are competing so well against the rest of the world - educators that know better than the rest of us.
Seriously man, stereotypes mean nothing, just like comments from anonymous “professional” educators. Show us some facts. Surely if the stereotype is correct there will be a plethora of corroborating statistical data and not merely limited anecdotal “evidence.” Perhaps the good Doctor would like to share with us some of “the recent research on homeschooling” which he has read.
You guys think of pubic schools as some kind of theological “battleground?” What the…? I always thought school was a place to learn reading, writing and arithmetic.
Richard Dawkins thinks the same thing but from the other side of the fence. Do you agree with him or disagree with him?
j razz
Cineaste,
Thanks for doing a little research on the matter. I’m so used to hearing people just spout off things that they had heard once or twice, so I appreciate the fact that you actually backed up what you said. I’m also glad to see that you went to what appears to be a reputable source.
Furthermore, I have no doubt that many home schooling parents DO overprotect and over-shelter their children and that is certainly something that can be a problem when a child is then flung into a university environment with little preparation for their newly acquired freedom. I would be interested in knowing what kind of problems your friend has had in dealing in his or her six years of dealing with home schooled kids. Are they truly socialization problems? And what exactly is the standard for socialization? How does a properly “socialized” child behave?
It looks like Joel has more background with research on this matter than I do. The last I read on this subject was five or six years ago, and at that time, the overwhelming evidence that I saw supported the idea that it the socialization problem is a myth, especially since the popularity of home school co-ops have increased so much.
But I’m not exactly the biggest fan of “professional” research anyway. We can manipulate research to produce the results we want and the results that best suit our agenda.
So wise or not, I tend to rely more on personal experience and the experience of those I know and trust.
Here’s what I do bring to the table. Between my parents and my wife’s parents there is a combined 105 years teaching experience in the public schools, grades K-8th. Throw in my wife’s grandparents and that number jumps to about 150 years. Both my wife and my mom have master’s degrees in education. I have a neighbor with an Ed.D. and one with a Ph.D. who both have taught on the university level and one who is now in administration in the 20th largest school system in the country. None of them buy into the socialization myth and all four of our parents are favorable for us home-schooling.
Back to my original question, though. How many adults who were home schooled do you know personally that are social misfits, uncreative, and uncritical thinkers? I can point to plenty of people who have a publik edgucashun that fit that description.
Sincerely,
Brett (Education: 15 years Public, 11 years Private, 0 Home Schooled)
Hi Brett thank you for being so courteous about this. I very much appreciate it. My source is actually my father. I was reluctant to mention that for fear of people attacking his credentials because he happens to be my Dad. If you’d like to have an in depth discussion with him about this topic, I can provide you with his email address. I’ll email him your latest comment and ask him if he wants to respond as well.
Thanks again, Brett!