I’m not a pacifist, and i truly believe sadam was a despicable human being….but, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” keeps running through my head…would Jesus have pulled the lever on the gallows? i know it sounds weak and soft, but i am truly torn….i despised the man and feel he deserved to die for all the suffering he caused….i just don’t know if as Christians we should be solemnly rejoicing…..
I appreciate your sensitivity, but to answer your question — yes, I believe Jesus has authorized governments to fulfill this function of dispensing justice. And I believe we can, in a sense, rejoice when justice is done.
i know we are to submit to the authority of the government put over us…. but i also know that if that government goes against scripture we are not to sit back and use “the government is in power” as an excuse or justification for our support of sin…. and i’m not suggesting that this is sin….. i just am conflicted….i’m not sad that he’s been put to death… i just have really mixed feelings when i step back internally and view things on a greater scale
Lisa, it seems to me that your confusion exists on a couple of different levels - the executioners and the supporters of the executioners. I’m going to respond as such - if I have misconstrued something, please restate yourself.
I’m not sure why the “he who is without sin cast the first stone” verse is going through your head - nobody here has cast a stone. Tim’s comments were simply “justice is served,” echoed by Jeremy and Gordon - I don’t see how this is stone casting, unless you were directing that towards the executioners (including judges, juries, etc.).
As for the support of those involved that led to the hanging, you offer up more verses with the general concern being whether or not we’re supporting sin (again, please correct me if I have misinterpreted) - to which you also offer up that you’re not saying it is sin.
Here are my questions to you:
1. Did the government in place in Iraq sin in this action (the trying and execution)?
2. What greater scale are you referring to?
3. Why shouldn’t we rejoice when another person has gone on to be with (and be judged by) God?
4. Would you have preferred him to not be executed?
Just to be sure, I am not being snarky or sarcastic to you and your position. Like Tim, I can appreciate your sensitivity to the value of life and sin. Please consider this as more of an open dialog than a debate.
Terri Schiavo, in her death, suffered far more than this ruthless murderer. And what is really sickening is that I’m sure it would not be too difficult to find some left wingers who supported the murder of Terri Shiavo yet felt like Saddam should not have been executed.
Thanks for your honest reply and thoughtful questions, misawa…. i hadn’t realized that my comments might sound like a criticism of tim and that was most certainly not my intent…. i am trying to work out an inner conflict within myself regarding the death penalty in general. As I’ve said, I’ll lose no sleep over Saddam’s demise. I also hold no judgment for the executioners - that’s not my place.
Tim, i apologize if my words came across as directed at you - i most honestly didn’t intend that at all.
As for the “he who is without sin…” reference, the issue was that the law of the day was to put an adulteress to death (the death penalty) and Jesus called the people on it, quite directly….. i know that an adulteress and Saddam do not equate, but then Jesus did call sin sin and called us to look deeper into our hearts.
As for the my ‘greater scale’ - i’m referring to my own recent inner turmoil regarding the death penalty in general - mostly within my own country, the USA. Up until the past 12 months I’ve been a supporter of the death penalty. But lately I’ve been thinking about how it was easy for me to say, ‘good riddance’ to those who’ve been executed and yet I could not have ‘pulled the trigger’ myself, so to speak.
As I’ve been reading and re-reading through the New Testament, I just can’t find a clear indication of how Jesus would respond to the death penalty. I know that God is full of mercy AND justice. The New Testament is full of Jesus’ own actions and words - and they are compassionate and pointed, but without violence.
It’s hard for me to rectify (not that Christianity is easy - it’s not) I’ve been concerned at how I’ve become a truly “Americanized Christian” - my faith is influenced almost as much by my conservative political morals and the constitution as it is the Bible.
For the record, I believe that the starvation of Terry Schiavo was a horrendous act of cowardice. Having watched my mom suffer through a 5 year battle with cancer, eventually succumbing to it’s effects, I am firm in my belief that we fight to live and when it’s our time, it’s our time.
Thanks for letting me ramble outside my head, Tim. Have a happy new year, everyone.
I take no pleasure in Saddam’s death, only in the serving of justice. Tim Challies says it well in his post about how we have much to rejoice, but we mourn his current sentence to eternal torture in Hell (most likely).
I’m with you, Lisa. I, too, supported the death penalty for years, before questioning it hard these past 12 months or so.
The interesting thing here, though, is that Saddam is such an extreme example. I think we would all agree that if anyone deserved the death penalty, it was him, for him simply staying alive was hazardous to many of his opponents’ healths.
I digress. i guess I would say that executions in America and executions in other nations are different issues. that being said, I am still torn with you on this issue, Lisa. Like I wrote in a blog after the sentencing, I guess I take solice in those that can now rest much easier at night knowing such a dangerous foe is no more.
Lisa,
I appreciate your humble spirit and honesty in stating your thoughts. We ALL should be concerned about, as you put it, “Americanized Christianity.” In other discussions here over the months, that term could have been applied. At first, I supported the war in Iraq. Now I have questions. However, let us remember that the current Iraqi court system handed down the sentence. As far as I know, no American there, or anyone in this country, ordered the death sentence; it appears to be the will of the Iraqi people. As for your conflict about the death penalty, that is a result of the “politically correct” movement that has swept America over the past 20 years or so. Remember that Jesus IS God also, and the two never contradict each other. Yes we want to see Jesus as a loving, kind Savior, but He is also just. It is His holiness and justice that American Christianity sometimes leaves out, in order to make Christ more palatible, which is wrong to do.
Lisa, I ask God’s blessings on you in the new year, that He will use you to accomplish great things for His Kingdom.
I think Romans 13 is an applicable passage of Scripture. Paul is speaking to Roman Christians about being subject to the government, and says this, beginning in verse 4:
“But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.”
I think that Paul is referencing — and endorsing — capital punishment here.
Thanks for the reference, Tim. I read that scripture then re-read the sermon on the mount in Matthew and i see differing issues.
One concerns our respect for the governments in place above us (which we often seek to change because of their immorality and extreme injustice).
The other issue deals with our own hearts and attitudes towards those governments andlaws. During Paul’s times, Christians were routinely put to death for sport via the lion by the government in authority. I doubt we’d respond with joy at that. Yet, if the same government put to death someone we judge to be immoral and we rejoice?
I can respect and even support the government placed in authority above me, but my heart, my attitude and my response is to follow the example of Christ himself. It’s definately a balance of extremely perfect tension that I’m far from understanding.
I watched the event on a downloaded video. All I could think was “How does this matter when our own soldiers are still dieing over there?”. Also did you see the dude on fox news who missed the cue to start dancing. Plus all the Islamic gibber gabber going on before they killed him was rather discouraging.
I think we ultimatly need to look at what justce means in the larger sense of the word. If the business of God is reconcillation, then capital punishment should serve as a means toward that end. I’m afraid that we tend to look a justice as punishment only and not as part of the larger goal. Sometimes, justice may involve capital punishment, and sometimes it may involve restitution. Regardless, Christians should be looking at how capital punishment can serve to further the goal of reconcilliation.
So was justice “served”? Perhaps it was. I think that in some sense that may be the wrong question. Perhaps the better question is, will the death of Saddam further reconcilliation among the people of Iraq. Perhaps it will. Let’s all pray that it will.
I am torn wetween 2 view points on capital punishment.
On the one hand, I am fearful of what capital punishment says to society regarding the human spirit. It seems to me that we are saying that a person can commit an act that is basically un-redeemable. Meaning that a person can commit an act so heinous that society views that person to have no redeeming value whatsoever. As a Christian, I don’t believe this. I think there is room for repentance for all of God’s creatures and that every life has intrinsic value. Even the life of an unrepentant murderer (Barabbas).
On the other hand, capital punishment tells society that we do in fact value life so much that the taking of one’s life is the only satisfactory punishment for murder.
I probably lean toward the first arguement a bit more than the second.
Ditto.
Amen.
I’m not a pacifist, and i truly believe sadam was a despicable human being….but, “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” keeps running through my head…would Jesus have pulled the lever on the gallows? i know it sounds weak and soft, but i am truly torn….i despised the man and feel he deserved to die for all the suffering he caused….i just don’t know if as Christians we should be solemnly rejoicing…..
Lisa,
I appreciate your sensitivity, but to answer your question — yes, I believe Jesus has authorized governments to fulfill this function of dispensing justice. And I believe we can, in a sense, rejoice when justice is done.
“Ding-dong the witch is dead, the wicked witch is dead!”
i know we are to submit to the authority of the government put over us…. but i also know that if that government goes against scripture we are not to sit back and use “the government is in power” as an excuse or justification for our support of sin…. and i’m not suggesting that this is sin….. i just am conflicted….i’m not sad that he’s been put to death… i just have really mixed feelings when i step back internally and view things on a greater scale
Lisa, it seems to me that your confusion exists on a couple of different levels - the executioners and the supporters of the executioners. I’m going to respond as such - if I have misconstrued something, please restate yourself.
I’m not sure why the “he who is without sin cast the first stone” verse is going through your head - nobody here has cast a stone. Tim’s comments were simply “justice is served,” echoed by Jeremy and Gordon - I don’t see how this is stone casting, unless you were directing that towards the executioners (including judges, juries, etc.).
As for the support of those involved that led to the hanging, you offer up more verses with the general concern being whether or not we’re supporting sin (again, please correct me if I have misinterpreted) - to which you also offer up that you’re not saying it is sin.
Here are my questions to you:
1. Did the government in place in Iraq sin in this action (the trying and execution)?
2. What greater scale are you referring to?
3. Why shouldn’t we rejoice when another person has gone on to be with (and be judged by) God?
4. Would you have preferred him to not be executed?
Just to be sure, I am not being snarky or sarcastic to you and your position. Like Tim, I can appreciate your sensitivity to the value of life and sin. Please consider this as more of an open dialog than a debate.
Terri Schiavo, in her death, suffered far more than this ruthless murderer. And what is really sickening is that I’m sure it would not be too difficult to find some left wingers who supported the murder of Terri Shiavo yet felt like Saddam should not have been executed.
Thanks for your honest reply and thoughtful questions, misawa…. i hadn’t realized that my comments might sound like a criticism of tim and that was most certainly not my intent…. i am trying to work out an inner conflict within myself regarding the death penalty in general. As I’ve said, I’ll lose no sleep over Saddam’s demise. I also hold no judgment for the executioners - that’s not my place.
Tim, i apologize if my words came across as directed at you - i most honestly didn’t intend that at all.
As for the “he who is without sin…” reference, the issue was that the law of the day was to put an adulteress to death (the death penalty) and Jesus called the people on it, quite directly….. i know that an adulteress and Saddam do not equate, but then Jesus did call sin sin and called us to look deeper into our hearts.
As for the my ‘greater scale’ - i’m referring to my own recent inner turmoil regarding the death penalty in general - mostly within my own country, the USA. Up until the past 12 months I’ve been a supporter of the death penalty. But lately I’ve been thinking about how it was easy for me to say, ‘good riddance’ to those who’ve been executed and yet I could not have ‘pulled the trigger’ myself, so to speak.
As I’ve been reading and re-reading through the New Testament, I just can’t find a clear indication of how Jesus would respond to the death penalty. I know that God is full of mercy AND justice. The New Testament is full of Jesus’ own actions and words - and they are compassionate and pointed, but without violence.
It’s hard for me to rectify (not that Christianity is easy - it’s not) I’ve been concerned at how I’ve become a truly “Americanized Christian” - my faith is influenced almost as much by my conservative political morals and the constitution as it is the Bible.
For the record, I believe that the starvation of Terry Schiavo was a horrendous act of cowardice. Having watched my mom suffer through a 5 year battle with cancer, eventually succumbing to it’s effects, I am firm in my belief that we fight to live and when it’s our time, it’s our time.
Thanks for letting me ramble outside my head, Tim. Have a happy new year, everyone.
You don’t owe me an apology, Lisa. I don’t have any problem with what you’ve said or how you’ve said it.
I take no pleasure in Saddam’s death, only in the serving of justice. Tim Challies says it well in his post about how we have much to rejoice, but we mourn his current sentence to eternal torture in Hell (most likely).
I’m with you, Lisa. I, too, supported the death penalty for years, before questioning it hard these past 12 months or so.
The interesting thing here, though, is that Saddam is such an extreme example. I think we would all agree that if anyone deserved the death penalty, it was him, for him simply staying alive was hazardous to many of his opponents’ healths.
I digress. i guess I would say that executions in America and executions in other nations are different issues. that being said, I am still torn with you on this issue, Lisa. Like I wrote in a blog after the sentencing, I guess I take solice in those that can now rest much easier at night knowing such a dangerous foe is no more.
Lisa,
I appreciate your humble spirit and honesty in stating your thoughts. We ALL should be concerned about, as you put it, “Americanized Christianity.” In other discussions here over the months, that term could have been applied. At first, I supported the war in Iraq. Now I have questions. However, let us remember that the current Iraqi court system handed down the sentence. As far as I know, no American there, or anyone in this country, ordered the death sentence; it appears to be the will of the Iraqi people. As for your conflict about the death penalty, that is a result of the “politically correct” movement that has swept America over the past 20 years or so. Remember that Jesus IS God also, and the two never contradict each other. Yes we want to see Jesus as a loving, kind Savior, but He is also just. It is His holiness and justice that American Christianity sometimes leaves out, in order to make Christ more palatible, which is wrong to do.
Lisa, I ask God’s blessings on you in the new year, that He will use you to accomplish great things for His Kingdom.
I was disappointed there weren’t 3 more beside him. Before long 4 more because Gates isn’t any better.
This might be helpful:
http://www.carm.org/email/skep_kill.htm
Zoner - thanks for the link, I’d just like to see the scripture references for my own study. That web page doesn’t provide any (that I could see).
Thanks!
Lisa,
I think Romans 13 is an applicable passage of Scripture. Paul is speaking to Roman Christians about being subject to the government, and says this, beginning in verse 4:
“But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer.”
I think that Paul is referencing — and endorsing — capital punishment here.
Thanks for the reference, Tim. I read that scripture then re-read the sermon on the mount in Matthew and i see differing issues.
One concerns our respect for the governments in place above us (which we often seek to change because of their immorality and extreme injustice).
The other issue deals with our own hearts and attitudes towards those governments andlaws. During Paul’s times, Christians were routinely put to death for sport via the lion by the government in authority. I doubt we’d respond with joy at that. Yet, if the same government put to death someone we judge to be immoral and we rejoice?
I can respect and even support the government placed in authority above me, but my heart, my attitude and my response is to follow the example of Christ himself. It’s definately a balance of extremely perfect tension that I’m far from understanding.
I watched the event on a downloaded video. All I could think was “How does this matter when our own soldiers are still dieing over there?”. Also did you see the dude on fox news who missed the cue to start dancing. Plus all the Islamic gibber gabber going on before they killed him was rather discouraging.
I think we ultimatly need to look at what justce means in the larger sense of the word. If the business of God is reconcillation, then capital punishment should serve as a means toward that end. I’m afraid that we tend to look a justice as punishment only and not as part of the larger goal. Sometimes, justice may involve capital punishment, and sometimes it may involve restitution. Regardless, Christians should be looking at how capital punishment can serve to further the goal of reconcilliation.
So was justice “served”? Perhaps it was. I think that in some sense that may be the wrong question. Perhaps the better question is, will the death of Saddam further reconcilliation among the people of Iraq. Perhaps it will. Let’s all pray that it will.
I am torn wetween 2 view points on capital punishment.
On the one hand, I am fearful of what capital punishment says to society regarding the human spirit. It seems to me that we are saying that a person can commit an act that is basically un-redeemable. Meaning that a person can commit an act so heinous that society views that person to have no redeeming value whatsoever. As a Christian, I don’t believe this. I think there is room for repentance for all of God’s creatures and that every life has intrinsic value. Even the life of an unrepentant murderer (Barabbas).
On the other hand, capital punishment tells society that we do in fact value life so much that the taking of one’s life is the only satisfactory punishment for murder.
I probably lean toward the first arguement a bit more than the second.